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As a former smoker (who quit for seven years and regrets taking it up again), and as a present-day vape user, wtf. This is a clear restriction on liberty. It may be stupid that I do it. Just like many stupid decisions (junk food included), it ought to be my right to decide how to live.

Cut off production so cigarettes are no longer made or imported. Don't block me from them while letting others have them. (Not in UK)

It'd be kinda funny to see an early 1900s / USA-style mafia / gangster resurgence of bootleggers over cigs in the UK. Much lower stakes, but black markets are a thing.

Edit: added "while letting others have them"



In a country with a national health system, why should you be able to internalize the benefit of smoking whilst externalizing the cost?


Then ban McDonalds. Ban cigarettes outright for all. Give federal funding to healthy alternatives. Raise tax on sugar 200%. Alcohol 500%. Use federal funds to make cities walkable. Give police the mandate to enforce more action on violent criminals. Fund unions. Fine employers where people work longer than 8 hours per day on average. Fine employers who do not grant mandatory 5 weeks vacation per year.

This is the world where the interests of the NHS is what counts for making the rules. Many countries implement at least some of these measures, to great success.


You could use this logic to ban unhealthy foods, or restrict people from eating too much.



Or to resist ever passing a national health system.


There is something insidious about the state forcing a citizen to pay for its services, only turn around and insist that the use of said services entitles the state to further control of the citizen.


Indeed yes. We have extremely large governmental departments regulating what can and can not be sold as food.


Not the quantity of food though. Deaths attributed to obesity are higher than those of smoking in recent years. Smoking rates are falling, but obesity continues to climb in the UK.


Trans fats are banned in restaurants in Canada.

Crazy food additives and preservatives are banned in Europe that are common in the US.

https://foodbabe.com/food-in-america-compared-to-the-u-k-why...


Considering the general state of the UK population, this may not be such a bad idea.


This is just whataboutism, but the UK also regulates sugar in fairly draconian ways too, for example.

There are good reasons to target smoking given how addictive and deadly it is. Nicotine is fairly unique in this regard.


It's reductio ad absurdum. Obesity is really bad for you and strains public health services. Should the government enforce a cap on caloric intake?


Unlike food, nicotine is not a necessity. Also calorie intake alone doesn't determine weight gain or loss. The problem of obesity is much more complex.

Governments try to address this problem through education and regulation of food. There are drugs available now to help control obesity and they're very popular, so people obviously want to avoid the condition.

I don't know why you think people should have a right to take highly addictive drugs that result in premature death. Contrary to smoker's claims, cigarettes are pure addiction and provide no benefits whatsoever to the smoker.


They already prevent advertising the sorts of foods that contribute to obesity to children, and encourage you to drink less sugary drinks by applying tax to them (though unfortunately manufacturers have responded to this by reducing choice and adding artificial sweeteners instead of selling something at a higher price that can be enjoyed once every few weeks.

I don't think any of this is unreasonable in a country that picks up the tab through both subsidised dental care and completely free-at-point-of-use healthcare.


Would a calorie cap be reasonable?


> Would a calorie cap be reasonable?

A legislation that isn't possible to enforce is not reasonable, no.

Banning cigarettes = easy to enforce.

Banning sugar in soft drinks = easy to enforce.

Limiting how many calories you can consume = how do you propose we do that? Do we even have the technology to track what someone eats? And do we carve out exceptions for athletes?

If there was a way to cap calories without surgically inserting trackers into everybody I'm sure you'd see a lot less opposition to your idea.


Whether something is possible to enforce seems like a sliding scale. We can totally imagine a world where a calorie cap is possible to enforce. In such a world, would it be reasonable?


Make a lolly bag $100 and not $1 and your problem is solved


a better solution is banning processed foods which fall below a threshold for calories/micronutrient content (and no artificial enrichment allowed)


No but you can make sure only healthy desserts are being sold. You can only stuff so much carrot cake.

Decent labelling could be a start. Even when shopping online there's basically next to 0 of actual data of what goes into product.

Forget trying to create a healthy shopping AI agent.


not could, should. i'm fully in favor of banning processed foods that fall below a threshold for calories/micronutrient ratio (and no artificial enrichment permitted)


pigouvian taxes are both a stronger disincentive and help cover externalized costs.

if this moves nicotine to the black market then the people/government will still pay the cost without receiving any taxes on it at all


> In a country with a national health system

I live in the USA where we are treated like crap by our system of government. I'd agree with you if we had national healthcare.


The sin taxes more than cover the healthcare costs of the associated sins. It's the untaxed sins, greed and sloth, that are fucking the NHS.


Smokers cost less in medical care because they die of heart attack and stroke before they get old enough for age-related care, along with smoking disqualifying people from many common procedures. Plus the sin taxes they pay already bring in more revenue than their entire lifetime medical costs.


OK, so if you smoke you don't get national / socialized health care but don't have to pay the taxes that fund it either. Deal. It's enough to convince me to take up smoking.


> This is a clear restriction on liberty. ... Just like many stupid decisions (junk food included), it ought to be my right to decide how to live.

I guess that liberty was plenty abused on every non-smoker in a non-smoking area, that ended up coughing in clouds of smoke anyway. Smoking affects everyone around you whether you want it or not, and while you may smoke for 50 years and end up being perfectly healthy, some may get cancer from it, even for a very small dose.


There's already some pretty comprehensive bans on smoking in places where it could affect other people. I don't really encounter cigarette smoke in my day-to-day life.


> There's already some pretty comprehensive bans on smoking in places where it could affect other people.

Which I'm arguing are disregarded most of the times by most smokers. I do encounter cigarette smoke in my day-to-day, unfortunately. And unfortunately it's always the same places, mostly bars and restaurants that have outdoor spaces. Places where I'm supposed to smell food I pay for, and I end up smelling smoke instead.


However, people born before 2008 smoking around you, affects you, as well. If they want to protect people they need to ban it for everybody..


> If they want to protect people they need to ban it for everybody..

Last time governments tried to force people to do something for their own sake, you saw how it ended (COVID). If people can't start smoking cigarettes, they won't get hooked up, so gradually at least regular cigarettes will be phased out. Vapes are still controversial, but as a non-smoker with a very sensitive nose, vape smoke is 10000x better than cigarette smoke. It doesn't cause me to cough, it doesn't contain harmful chemical compounds, it doesn't soil clothes nearly as much, and I can still smell food at a restaurant.


>This is a clear restriction on liberty.

So is banning the sale of leaded gasoline.


The head rush of the first leaded gasoline inhale in the morning used to beat any cigarette, too.


> "it ought to be my right to decide how to live"

"Why is the government stopping me from murdering people and stealing from them? it's my right to decide how I live!"


I think that a government should be able to ban murdering people but that it would very sketchy for them to ban it for some people and not others.

One of the most important foundations of democracy is that the law applies to everyone equally. If smoking is banned, it should be banned for everyone, not banned for some people and allowed for a privileged class who got here first.


This is nonsense. There is a logic to the law, it's not arbitrary.

I could argue (unsuccessfully) that it's discriminatory and unfair that I have to wait an extra 3 years to claim my pension compared to older people.


You vill get your state mandated 1 hour of exercise and 5 servings of vegetables. You VILL eat only the state mandated bug based protein that our studies have shown to be 10% less likely of causing heart attacks than red meat. YOU VILL NOT spend more than 1 hour outside to prevent skin cancer.


>our studies have shown to be 10% less likely....

You are not nearly jaded enough.

If the construction industry is any indication the stuff these people mandate is lucky to have 1% at best and that's with "money motivated" numbers cooked up in academic labs funded by the same industries that benefit from the rules.


This is a great argument. Let's use it to ban sugar and meat.


Kinda like being in a country where nobody born past a certain date can ever be a citizen.

Unless their ancestors were already citizens beforehand.

Which I guess could be considered a more generous concession.


A restriction on liberty? For a britbong? What a surprise.


It's a restriction on liberty but not an unjustified one. I agree that it gives cigarettes a "mystique" that they do not deserve to have one generation able to smoke if they like while another generation has to go outside the law to do so.

When I was a smoker, I used to decry places that were less liberal about where I was allowed to smoke, and places with high taxes. As a former smoker, I know that the high taxes have enabled a lot of people to stop, and the restrictions got to a point where smoking was less "cool" and more "pariah" behavior. These influences helped me stop.

If you didn't read "The Easy Way to Stop Smoking", go do so, and smoke/vape no more.

If everyone appreciated how little value they receive from tobacco/nicotine and how easy it really is to quit, there would be no market.


People should be able to do things that provide them with little value. Over-eating and drinking alcohol seem to be some of the UK's favourites, far more than smoking.


If I want to smoke in my own home I should be able to. Next up the government will ban reading hacker news for people born after 2012 because it incentivizes you sitting in your chair too much.


Might be a good idea tbh


How is it that different for it being banned for underage vs banned for people born after 2008?

Its just that for one group is never becomes okay


> wtf. This is a clear restriction on liberty

The title is hyperbolic. It isn't a ban on smoking. It's a "ban on buying cigarettes." Commerce is being restricted, not consumption. If, presumably, you bring your own in from France, or someone bums one to you, it would appear you're free to smoke it.

That broadly seems to strike a fair balance. Banning purchases and sales, not possession or consumption.


A lifetime ban on purchase is a ban. Don't be ridiculous.


Not if its legal to grow your own.




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