I am a colleague of Jess, and have witnessed her dealing with this ordeal. She is a badass and doesn't need anyone to speak on her behalf. But some aspects of her experience are relevant to all of us and we have to talk about it.
1. If this is happening to you and you haven't spoken to anyone about it - please do. There is a specialized support group at https://www.crashoverridenetwork.net . Even if you feel you can handle it yourself, it will help spread awareness. Part of the problem is that not enough people are aware of just how common these attacks are.
2. This is real. She is not making it up or dramatizing it to "get attention". How incredible is it that in 2015 this needs to be said? In fact she has downplayed the whole thing for months (months of continuous harrassment!). At first I didn't understand why - but seeing some of the reactions here, sadly, I think I understand.
3. Yes, law enforcement is involved. Those people are breaking the law and must face the consequences. The good news is that they are likely to get caught. Unlike other forms of cyber-crime, this particular crime id actually quite risky if the victim is determined and well-supported. The people tracking them down are well funded and have a great track record. Speaking for her employer, we will spare no expense to make sure the people responsible get what they deserve.
4. In addition to law enforcement, if you know of a legal way to help make those people regret what they did, please contact me. Our employer will foot the bill - or if it's really too expensive for a single private company to fund, I will find money elsewhere. Forgive my French but: let's make the motherfuckers pay. This also applies to increasing the risk for future crimes like this.
5. It's true that this kind of trolling is probably not a product of the tech industry itself. It is a deeper problem that will haunt us for some time, like racism, drug abuse or road rage. HOWEVER, after reading some of the comments here, without a doubt our industry is contributing to the problem through ignorance and sometimes plain stupidity. If you're downplaying this as "just trolling", asserting that gender has nothing to do with it, complaining that women are getting unfair attention, or assuming the victim is just trying to get attention: I'm sorry to say you are part of the problem, in the same way that climate change skeptics are part of the problem. You are not voicing a valid opinion; you are ignoring facts collected over years of research and professional experience by people who know better than you. And in the process you are forcing us to keep debating the reality of the problem, when we should be focused on fixing it. So when Jess says "this industry is fucked", I say: she is right. We're allowing our fellow technologists to be victimized right under our noses, and we're basically doing nothing. So let's fix it.
6. With the help of the comic artist Laurel (who has also experienced harrassment) we made a T-shirt to raise awareness. We're going to print and share as many as possible, but if you want to pribt your own, here's the hi-res PSD: https://www.dropbox.com/s/5ikdlu6gavn669l/s-dockercon-harras...
Doesn't look like it's been mentioned yet but there is very related project called Online Abuse Prevention Initiative (OAPI http://onlineabuseprevention.org/). It would be a good idea to talk to them in addition to what you are already doing.
I would strongly advise against backing OAPI. The CEO & founder is Randi Harper. Her online persona is quite hostile, and she is often the instigator of online harassment. One of my acquaintances was the target of her ire. Her e-mails and call-outs eventually caused him to seek psychiatric help, including medication.
So while I support the goal of OAPI, I think the founding members have attitudes that hurt the cause more than help it. I wish there was an organization I could recommend instead, but so far I haven't found anything. If anyone knows of alternatives, I'm all ears.
I'm sorry if you think I'm part of the problem, but I don't see how those two points relate to my comment. Heck, I agree with pretty much everything shkyes said.
I didn't know labelling Randi Harper a harasser was a gamergate tactic. I know almost nothing about this whole gamergate business. I just visited the OAPI's site and recognized the name Randi Harper from my acquaintance's experience. He had a very rough time because of her emails, Facebook messages, and tweets. For that reason and that reason alone, I voiced my concern. I don't have any other motive.
Digging deeper, I see that Harper herself has been on the receiving end of some outright egregious behavior. I can only express my condolences for her and condemnation for her attackers.
Still, it seems to me that her organization will likely cause more harm than good in curbing online abuse. One can feel sympathy for another human being while also doubting their fit for a position.
But honestly, this whole topic is radioactive. No matter one's opinion or how delicately it is put, it gets misconstrued and pigeonholed. It's impossible to have an honest, nuanced conversation.
2. Unsubstantiated smears, and categorising her as "hostile". You're using an anonymous "throwaway" account, so there's no evidence whatsoever for your claims.
5. Downplaying the extreme harassment as "egregious behavior". Perhaps you (or anyone reading) might want to go look it up yourself, there's pages and pages of this sort of unbelievably obnoxious drivel: https://twitter.com/search?q=%40freebsdgirl%20%23gamergate&s...
The only reason that Randi created GGAutoblocker and the OAPI was because she was targeted by gamergate. And their tactics are, essentially, what you're doing right now - smear tactics.
Throwaway? My account is over 5 years years old. Please look at my comment history.[1] I'm not a troll or a single-issue commenter. I use a pseudonym because sometimes I want to say things that I believe to be true, but would cause me unnecessary grief if attached to my real name.
"Egregious" is downplaying? I used one of the strongest adjectives I could think of. Replace it with synonyms: their behavior is appalling, shocking, atrocious, abhorrent. I do not support them. I think they are terrible people. I cannot condemn them any more strongly than I already have. Please stop insinuating that I'm part of such a despicable group.
I'm glad Randi Harper created GGAutoblocker. I support the idea behind OAPI. I just don't think Harper is the right person for the job, as she has said some very not-nice things to someone I know, and it significantly impacted his quality of life.
I want the same thing as you: For people to converse without becoming targets of harassment, abuse, threats, or otherwise extremely unpleasant or dangerous communication. That's why I'm voicing my concern about the founder of OAPI. There is no other motive at work.
As I said before: No matter one's opinion or how delicately it is put, it gets misconstrued and pigeonholed. It's impossible to have an honest, nuanced conversation.
How can I disagree with you any more civilly than I already am? Yet despite such civility, I have to deal with implications that I'm part of an odious group of trolls and psychopaths.
Ok, fair enough, you want to keep HN and your personal life separate. And you may be otherwise sincere (at least, you seem to be based on your posts), but that separation makes anything that you post hearsay unless you can back it up externally. You should probably take that into account when trying to bring things from your personal life over into HN.
So perhaps rather than continuing the same pattern of "Randi bad, because I say so", perhaps you can point out somewhere where she's currently failing? I also note that OAPI is more than just Randi, there are several people involved: http://onlineabuseprevention.org/
I was curious, so I clicked on the Twitter search link you posted. This conversation took place between between Randi and a developer (Johannes Meixner a.k.a. xmj):
randi> xmj: kindly go fuck yourself.
randi> step the fuck back.
randi> jesus fuck, are you a gamergater?
randi> you are going on twitter and starting shit, and you just brought freebsd into it
randi> and now you're coming after me with bullshit on twitter that you won't even back up
randi> go. fuck. yourself.
randi> xmj: you're a fucking disservice to the project.
randi> and to open source in general.
randi> except you decided to get involved and talk shit to me and talk shit about code of condcuts
randi> i wouldn't have even known who you were had you not decided to be a dumbshit.
randi> you're giving the project a bad name
randi> and you should take it out of your bio on twitter.
randi> you grow up, you piece of shit.
randi> jesus
randi> another privileged dumbass
randi> whatever, dude. i'm emailing the foundation about you. they have a big push right now to try to get more women into the project, and your kind of public bullshit is the perfect example of why there isn't.
randi> go fuck yourself.
All I can say is, hopefully Randi learns something about her own behavior from the anti-abuse work she's undertaking.
Just so you know, the OAPI is run by Randi Harper, who herself has harassed many people. Most notably Vivek Wadhwa and Claire Schumann, but there are more names on that list.
I wish you luck in tracking down the guilty parties. Threats are not okay, no matter who makes them.
I'm not a particular follower of Randi's and still couldn't help but see the Vivek stuff going on. I wouldn't have labeled it harassment; what I saw was a loud and unrelenting public call for accountability. I don't believe she threatened, doxxed, or otherwise harassed him. Do you know differently?
What I would call harassment is that Randi was doxxed as well as swatted, seemingly by the same sort of folks involved in this situation. She seems to have decided to aggressively stand up for her rights and the rights of others.
I'm sure that makes many uncomfortable, some so much so that they create new profiles in social media to comment on it without risking their reputation. Which is fair, though you have to ask yourself why.
Fair, and we can disagree. I'll say that I'm not a fan of urging people to die in fires.
However, it's noteworthy that her review made several clear statements, some opinion and some fact, in her own name. She didn't resort to ad hominem attacks, nor doxxing, nor swatting. And evidently 370 of 1218 people found it useful in some way.
Also noteworthy that Stop the Goodread Bullies isn't a balanced, objective news source. Their coverage makes clear that SJW is a pejorative term that equates to bullying[1]; that they're happy to damn with innuendo rather than fact[2] and they're seemingly okay with pulling quotes out of context[3]. The only mention of Vox Day, who has participated in the same bullying review activity[4], is in the article you shared. Ergo, I'd tend to say they're not unbiased.
Still, they're not aking lewd suggestions or threatening peoples' lives, so I'm glad they're out there working to represent their opinions directly.
As I mentioned, I'm not a particular follower of hers; I guess I should have mentioned I'm also not her apologist.
Sorry I can't answer your question. I don't know what she was doing in that tweet; you provided no context. It's clear you believe you have the answer, though, and that you care enough to create a throwaway account; pull up a four year old tweet; and present in a discussion that really isn't about Randi. Seems like she's important to you.
I don't really get what is going on here. Why are people spamming her with death/rape threats? There doesn't really seem to be any context given. Is it literally that someone decided that she was a good harassment target for completely unknown reasons? Why is she a notable figure?
Obviously it's hard to know for sure. But most likely this is the work of "harassment hobbyists" who have no particular agenda other than the moronic thrill of messing with people from the safety of their keyboards. There is a great explanation elsewhere in this thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9836242
Most likely, Jess appeared on their radar because she is a very active and popular maintainer of Docker, a high-profile (and occasionally controversial) open-source project. She is known for impressive and sometimes hilarious hacks using Docker, witty and informative technical articles, and for contributing a great deal to the friendly and welcoming atmosphere of the Docker community. In short: she is awesome.
Ahh, I see. I, for some reason, came to the conclusion that she worked for Docker coding Docker the company stuff, not coding Docker the project stuff.
Those are the same thing :) Everything Docker builds is open-source and built together with the community. The exception is Docker Hub, our cloud service which is built by a separate team.
So, Jess is a core maintainer of Docker who happens to work full time for Docker inc.
I think the question for many will be, 'how to fix it'?
As people who run businesses, we can work on policies and culture. As events organisers, we can spread the word and raise awareness. As writers, we can write about this.
In answer to point 4, in terms of legal, you can always sue people for harassment. That's also a way of bringing attention and raising awareness. That might not be what the victims of trolls want, however, and you have to balance any needs for revenge against other people's needs to get on with their lives.
I know we have a zero tolerance approach to this stuff. But we are not a police force - the web is the perfect for helping people to be anonymous.
Thanks so much for writing this up. Happy to help getting those shirts out. Let me know if there's any way I can help out, with the shirts, or any other way. This just has to stop.
To the physical aspect of Solomon's point number 1. I have taught self defense in the past for years.
Rule #1:
Don't be in the situation.
Interpretation:
Obviously don't walk down a dark alley alone. But in this context, don't deal with it alone. Be sure people know you are in danger. Surround yourself with colleagues, friends and those whom you trust. Solomon is spot on: Don't be alone physically, emotionally, professionally.
Predators first isolate prey from the herd. Be smart enough to recognize this and avoid it.
And please, if a situation feels sketchy, remove yourself. Stubborn does not equal heroism. Be proactive with your safety and well being. It is yours.
Our Industry:
Our industry is _not_ fucked. I am part of that industry and I refuse to be characterized thusly.
I can sympathize with Jesse's indictment of the industry as a whole and do not cast aspersion on someone in her situation reacting as she has. I am sorry that it came to that level of frustration, pain, fear for her.
However we who are _not_ experiencing the stress of such a terrible situation are obliged to keep a level head. As a group we need to recast the cause of her frustration (and that of others in similar situations) into something more effective. Individual people in our industry are fucked. Let's identify these individuals and remove them from our industry.
Finally, to echo on another of Solomon's key points: Let's do it legally.
Thank you to Docker for seeking to identify these _individuals_ and prosecute them.
I want to help raise awareness to show that we stand with people like Jess who are having to deal with this bullshit. Where can we order the t-shirts? We must make it clear that this kind of bs will be met with fierce resistance from now on.
I'm not sure how an opinion could be invalid? Maybe to another, but obviously not to the person who has that opinion.
> asserting that gender has nothing to do with it
Of course it does in her case. I feel bad for her, and it totally sucks. However, this is what trolls do. They troll people for various illogical reasons.
> So let's fix it.
I am not trying to be rude, but this is so naive it is painful. You can't do anything to stop trolls online, especially intelligent technically proficient ones. You can behave respectfully and enforce societal norms in your own office and daily life. That is all you can do. Be a good person in real life and hold people to a reasonable standard.
> You can't do anything to stop trolls online [...]
So painfully wrong. There are many things you can do, including not giving up and walking off. You just have to decide you've had enough and are willing to do hard work.
Speak out, even when it's not in your own best interest.
Support people who are targeted.
And, last but not least, don't pick pedantic points to argue while losing sight of the main issue: it absolutely stinks to be a woman in tech.
I am not trolling I am just being a realist here. I recognize that it totally sucks, and it does seem to be harder for women in certain arenas because they are targeted by trolls more heavily. That being said, this comment is wishy-washy feel good fluff, and doesn't address the real issue.
If i was being harassed online how would I employ these tactics? These are just cliche motivational phrases.
> not giving up and walking off
> had enough and are willing to do hard work
> Speak out, even when it's not in your own best interest
None of these would do anything to prevent harassment.
It's disingenuous to switch from your original context in which you, a bystander, urge listeners to believe that this is an unsolvable problem, to the context of the victim, which you aren't.
If you, the bystander, decide to take a stand rather than write this off as too hard a problem to solve, you help the victim by giving them support, and you help future victims by decreasing, however slightly, the chance that harassers will continue to believe that their behavior is tolerable.
If you, the bystander, are willing to spend time on one person who doesn't yet understand but who may be willing to think, and then to move from thought to action, your efforts gain leverage and that minuscule probability decrease becomes larger.
If you, the bystander, continue to do this, even without being a victim yourself; if you do this in places your voice can be heard; if you do this even when you gain no personal benefit, you hopefully influence the people around you to at least think deeper, and from there, to act in some way that fits with their conscience. And in doing so, you give the victims hope for a day when this isn't their norm.
It's not a clogged sink. It's also not an intractable problem.
I have been thinking about this more and more lately. It is a security problem, not a social one.
>So let's fix it.
I posted a thread earlier today trying to solicit advise about solving this and posted some of my own advise. I realized that there is a lot that can be done but I was focusing on the attacker. This is much more about defense than it is about offense.
> This is much more about defense than it is about offense.
What you seem to mean by this is "I don't believe we can prevent threats from being sent".
Harassment is also a cultural issue. A vast amount of people live among a circle of friends who believe that sending things like death threats in anonymous emails is something that can be done light-heartedly. It's what transpires when people downplay the situation by saying "They can't be serious" or to "Just ignore them".
You mix up the need to stop an offender in action, with the need to remove the situations in which someone becomes an offender. Changing this "acceptable threat" culture is the offense you describe as less relevant, but it's key to a long-term change.
Thank you for thinking about this. It's a very worthy topic for thought. If you'd care to link the thread you mention, I'm sure others would like to help.
1. If this is happening to you and you haven't spoken to anyone about it - please do. There is a specialized support group at https://www.crashoverridenetwork.net . Even if you feel you can handle it yourself, it will help spread awareness. Part of the problem is that not enough people are aware of just how common these attacks are.
2. This is real. She is not making it up or dramatizing it to "get attention". How incredible is it that in 2015 this needs to be said? In fact she has downplayed the whole thing for months (months of continuous harrassment!). At first I didn't understand why - but seeing some of the reactions here, sadly, I think I understand.
3. Yes, law enforcement is involved. Those people are breaking the law and must face the consequences. The good news is that they are likely to get caught. Unlike other forms of cyber-crime, this particular crime id actually quite risky if the victim is determined and well-supported. The people tracking them down are well funded and have a great track record. Speaking for her employer, we will spare no expense to make sure the people responsible get what they deserve.
4. In addition to law enforcement, if you know of a legal way to help make those people regret what they did, please contact me. Our employer will foot the bill - or if it's really too expensive for a single private company to fund, I will find money elsewhere. Forgive my French but: let's make the motherfuckers pay. This also applies to increasing the risk for future crimes like this.
5. It's true that this kind of trolling is probably not a product of the tech industry itself. It is a deeper problem that will haunt us for some time, like racism, drug abuse or road rage. HOWEVER, after reading some of the comments here, without a doubt our industry is contributing to the problem through ignorance and sometimes plain stupidity. If you're downplaying this as "just trolling", asserting that gender has nothing to do with it, complaining that women are getting unfair attention, or assuming the victim is just trying to get attention: I'm sorry to say you are part of the problem, in the same way that climate change skeptics are part of the problem. You are not voicing a valid opinion; you are ignoring facts collected over years of research and professional experience by people who know better than you. And in the process you are forcing us to keep debating the reality of the problem, when we should be focused on fixing it. So when Jess says "this industry is fucked", I say: she is right. We're allowing our fellow technologists to be victimized right under our noses, and we're basically doing nothing. So let's fix it.
6. With the help of the comic artist Laurel (who has also experienced harrassment) we made a T-shirt to raise awareness. We're going to print and share as many as possible, but if you want to pribt your own, here's the hi-res PSD: https://www.dropbox.com/s/5ikdlu6gavn669l/s-dockercon-harras...